Eitem 10 sydd nesaf, y cynnig cydsyniad deddfwriaethol ar y Bil Tai Cymdeithasol (Rheoleiddio). Y Gweinidog Newid Hinsawdd sy'n gwneud y cynnig yma.

You're like a supermarket delivery, Julie James—you're just in time. Julie James, are you able to contribute? Can you wave? Wave if—

Apologies. Can you not hear me?

Yes, we can, but you're not saying anything. I'm calling you and you can now propose the LCM.

Apologies, Llywydd. Give me one second. I seem to be having an ICT problem. Give me one second. Apologies.

Okay. We'll take a pause.

There we go. Sorry. Apologies, Llywydd.

Okay. Much anticipated mover of the motion, then, Julie James.

Cynnig NDM8234 Julie James

Cynnig bod y Senedd, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 29.6, yn cytuno y dylai Senedd y DU ystyried y darpariaethau yn y Bil Tai Cymdeithasol (Rheoleiddio) i’r graddau y maent yn dod o fewn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol y Senedd.

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Diolch, Llywydd. I do move the motion. This is a UK Bill intended to reform the regulation of social housing providers in England. I have called another debate today, because on 9 March, I laid a final supplementary LCM following additional amendments proposed by the UK Government shortly before our last debate.

Today's debate and vote is in relation to giving legislative consent for the final version of the Bill as a whole. Although the Bill impacts on a relatively small number of people who live in Wales—tenants of the approximately 500 units in Wales owned or managed by English social housing providers—the legislative consent of the Senedd is required where UK legislation makes provision for any purpose within the competence of the Senedd. Since housing is a devolved matter, the requirement for consent is triggered.

I have now laid six memoranda that identify and explain why I believe consent is required. This last one deals with amendments to the Bill that introduce new requirements for certain qualifications in some housing management roles of social housing organisations in England. Following these amendments, my recommendation that legislative consent is given remains the same. The changes proposed to the English regime aim to ensure that landlords are more accountable to their tenants for their performance, and I don't think that anyone here in Wales would argue that that's not a positive aim.

I'm very, very grateful to the committees who have considered the memorandum on this Bill, including the reports on the sixth memorandum, which were published yesterday. I understand their concerns in relation to the need to provide the Senedd with as timely information as possible about UK legislation within devolved competence, and the need to give as much opportunity for scrutiny as possible. I really have striven to meet Standing Order requirements, demonstrated by the improvements to the laying times for later LCMs produced in relation to this Bill. But, Llywydd, there have been circumstances beyond my control, which have seriously impacted on the smooth functioning of Senedd consideration of this legislative consent.

During the last debate, I gave an undertaking to write to Michael Gove to express my dissatisfaction that the laying of amendments at a late stage, with so little notice before the date of the consent debate, severely constrained the ability of the Senedd to fully consider the Bill in its final form, before deciding on whether to grant consent. In reply to my letter, Mr Gove advised me that he has delayed the final parliamentary stages of the Bill to ensure that this debate today could go ahead first.

Despite these procedural difficulties, Llywydd, I do remain of the view that consent is appropriate in this case, and I recommend Members support the legislative consent motion in respect of the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill today. Diolch.

Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol a Thai, John Griffiths.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I hear what the Minister has said about the difficulties in timing, Llywydd, and these have plagued this particular Bill, I'm afraid. We were once again as a committee unable to give this latest LCM the sort of consideration we would have liked, and we do not believe we've really been able to sufficiently understand the impact of the provisions on the lives of people in Wales, although we do accept the relatively small number of social housing properties in Wales affected and the positive changes that Welsh Government has set out for Welsh tenants who will be impacted.

I'd just like to reiterate the committee's concerns, Llywydd, that we should have more time if we are to play a meaningful role in this legislative consent process. Despite the concerns, most members of the committee feel that they can recommend that the Senedd gives its consent to legislate on the devolved matters in this supplementary memorandum. One member of the committee, Mabon ap Gwynfor, disagrees with the majority view, and believes that consent should not be granted.

Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a'r Cyfansoddiad nawr, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Diolch, Llywydd a'r Gweinidog.

I'm going to keep my comments brief on this item this afternoon, and I think that some of my comments have actually been prefigured by the remarks of the Minister, and, indeed, my fellow Chair, John Griffiths.

When we spoke last month, during the first debate we had on a legislative consent motion for this Bill, I focused on the large number of memoranda laid by the Welsh Government—it's something that the Minister mentioned as well. We are, as the Minister says, up to number six on this Bill, and I just repeat that this demonstrates the extent to which the Bill introduced to the UK Parliament has changed since its introduction, and the extent to which such changes impact on devolved areas too. And I think that the Minister acknowledged that.

We have really welcomed the Minister’s action to lay memorandum No. 6 before the Senedd. Whilst we acknowledge it is, of course, a requirement of our Standing Orders, it also assists all of us in ensuring that greater transparency is given to a process of legislating that is, well, it's sub-optimal—it's filled with deficiencies from a devolved legislature point of view. However, the fact that the Senedd has already been asked to make a decision on whether to give consent to the Bill’s relevant provisions because, as the Minister said, of the point at which the Bill was in the UK Parliament’s scrutiny process, again highlights the inadequacies of enabling a different Parliament to legislate for Wales on matters within the Senedd’s legislative competence. I sound like a broken record, but it's for a purpose. And I wonder, Minister—. It was good to hear that you've written to Michael Gove on these matters, and I'm sure you'll have raised it with him, but it would be helpful to hear any other reflections you have on this and the way we go forward.

But, in closing, can I briefly highlight that the amendments that triggered the laying of memorandum No. 6 relate to professional qualifications, and, as we understand it, new professional qualifications standards in England may fall under the ambit of Part 3 of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020? That's quite interesting. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

As a party, we're very happy to be supporting the consent motion for the sake of both tenants and the vast majority of responsible landlords. It's important that we have a framework that will crack down on poor standards, when needed. The Bill seeks to establish a new proactive approach to regulating social housing. Such issues include safety and tenant engagement, as well as creating new enforcement powers to tackle landlords that fail in their duty.

The UK Government identified the Bill has having three main objectives: to facilitate a new proactive consumer regulation regime; to refine the existing economic regulatory regime; and to strengthen the Regulator of Social Housing's powers to enforce the consumer and economic regimes. The UK Government announced that the objectives for the Regulator of Social Housing will include safety and transparency. The legislative barrier to regulator action—the serious detriment test—will be removed. Moreover, it will be mandatory for landlords to nominate a designated person for health and safety issues. 

This Bill will ensure that providers are well governed and financially viable to protect homes and supply investment. The UK Government seeks to encourage continued investment in the sector, as well as the development of new homes and the protection of tenants from the risk of provider insolvency. The UK Government's Bill will ensure the regulator can effectively intervene, when needed, through new enforcement powers, and the Bill will also ensure that the regulator has the appropriate tools to deal with non-compliance. 

Whilst the majority of provisions in the Bill relate to the regulation of social housing by English bodies, it will still have an impact on some tenants here in Wales. Provisions of the Bill extend to Wales insofar as English-registered providers who own and/or manage some social housing stock in Wales. There are approximately 530 properties in Wales that are owned and/or managed by an English RP, which will be subject to these changes described in the Bill. The Minister for Climate Change described it as appropriate for the provisions to be dealt with within the UK Parliament Bill, due to the small numbers of social housing stock in Wales owned or managed by an English-based RP. Of course, we agree, and we also hope that this means the Welsh Government recognises the need for strong England-and-Wales co-operation, so that we can ensure that these protections are as strong as possible.

The Minister has recommended the Senedd consents to the provisions, describing the clauses as positive for our tenants in Wales. We are very happy to agree with the Minister on this. Whilst it is welcome that the Senedd granted its consent in the legislative consent memorandum vote in February, it is, however, disappointing that Plaid Cymru voted against. I really struggle to see the reasoning behind this. The Bill, as acknowledged by the Welsh Government, strengthens tenants' rights, and, where applicable, will hold landlords to account when they fail in their role as a landlord. What part of this approach would Plaid Cymru be against?

There is one clause that has been tabled during the House of Commons Report Stage that does require Senedd consent. The provision, which was tabled by the UK Government, introduces a new section into the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008. The clause would enable the regulator to set standards to ensure those with management responsibilities have or are working towards appropriate qualifications, according to their role. This is very welcome, and I hope that the Welsh Governent and the UK Government will be able to engage constructively in order to strengthen tenant rights.

The Welsh Government continues to recommend the Senedd gives its consent to the Bill. We are very happy to be joining these calls, and will be voting this way. Thank you. Diolch.     

I will try to respond to some of Janet's questions in my response now. This supplementary legislative consent motion, like every other LCM, undermines the principles of devolution and fails to adequately address issues surrounding social housing here in Wales. I, therefore, oppose this LCM, and would urge my fellow Members to do so too.

This Bill is an infringement on the powers of the Welsh Government to regulate housing in our country. Housing is a devolved issue, and this Bill interferes with our ability to develop and implement policies that meet the specific needs of our communities. Instead, it seeks to impose a one-size-fits-all approach that may not work for us in Wales. This Bill has not been subject to adequate consultation with the people of Wales. We should be engaging with tenants, housing associations and other stakeholders to ensure that any changes made to the regulation of social housing are in the best interests of the people who rely on these services.

While this sixth LCM looks at very specific issues around the qualifications of managers within social housing in England, it is to do with England. We don’t know if it dovetails with Welsh law, nor if it is appropriate for tenants in Wales. There’s no way of knowing this because we’ve not seen any consultation, and scrutiny has been shockingly inadequate. The fact that there have been so many LCMs demonstrates how the proposed Bill has been changed and adjusted, and how the elected Members of Westminster, and indeed developments in housing in England, are able to influence the Bill—because it is their Bill. But we’ve had almost no voice here in Wales. It will affect the daily lives of tenants who live in Wales, the people who we represent, and yet neither we nor they have had any influence on it. The lack of time to scrutinise and understand the proposed legislation is entirely unacceptable.

The purpose of devolution, as weak as it is, is to give us the power to set policy in specific areas here in Wales, such as health, education, the environment and housing. Transferring those powers back to Westminster is contrary to the will of the people of Wales. It is entirely unacceptable. This Westminster legislation has been designed to meet the needs of England, but we face different challenges here, and Wales must respond to these challenges with our own policy framework. If we’re not able to solve the problems here with the limited powers that we have, then the solution is to demand more powers in order to tackle these challenges, not to surrender them to Westminster.

One of the concerns I’ve previously expressed regarding this LCM is the fact that there is social housing in Wales that comes under the control of housing associations in England, which will be accountable to Westminster legislation instead of being accountable to Welsh legislation. This currently affects around 500 properties, which is not insignificant. Thankfully, the requirements and standards in Wales are higher than in England, and congratulations must go to the Welsh Government for ensuring that. But we must ensure that everyone here in Wales can expect those same standards. Enabling this LCM today means that some social housing in Wales will continue to meet different, and lower, standards. That should not happen, and we must have consistency in terms of our expectations here in Wales.

In conclusion, I urge my colleagues to join me in opposing this LCM on the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill. We need to protect the powers of the Welsh Government to regulate housing in Wales and develop solutions that meet the needs of our communities. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

The Minister for Climate Change to reply. Julie James.

Diolch, Llywydd. I very much want to thank Members who’ve contributed to the debate today, and indeed to reiterate my thanks to the Chairs for their scrutiny of the LCMs over the time. I know that John Griffiths was not able to do this last one, but I’m very grateful for the previous work that the committee has done. I would just like to say that I completely agree about the time limits that have been imposed by the UK Government, and I’m very happy to continue to engage with Michael Gove in this particular instance about the timings of this. I think it has been useful that the debate has been able to take place prior to the vote in Westminster, but nevertheless, the timescales are inadequate for proper scrutiny.

I just want to say a few things about the contributions of both Janet Finch-Saunders and Mabon ap Gwynfor, just for clarification, Llywydd. These regulations will affect English social landlords who happen to have or manage properties in Wales—that’s around 500 properties. Just to be really clear, there are Welsh registered social landlords who own or manage properties in England and those houses are subject to the Welsh regime, so this is reciprocal. So, this isn’t that, somehow, England is having an influence in Wales that isn’t reciprocal—it is because the border is extremely porous and some properties are managed by people from the other side of the border. So, just to be really clear, I want Members to be really fully understanding that, if you are a Welsh registered provider, then you would be regulated by the Welsh regime. As Mabon ap Gwynfor pointed out, this is very much the English Government catching up with us and not the other way round. I just want to assure Members of that point. Nevertheless, it means that we need to have a regime that is fit for purpose and that the tenants of those particular RSLs do have the maximum protection that can be afforded. Therefore, Llywydd, I do recommend that Members support giving consent to this LCM. Diolch. 

Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad, ac felly gwnawn ni ohirio'r bleidlais ar yr eitem tan y cyfnod pleidleisio. 

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

Eitemau 11 a 12 sydd nesaf. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.24, os nad oes yna Aelod sy'n gwrthwynebu, fe fydd y ddau gynnig yma o dan eitemau 11 a 12 yn cael eu grwpio i'w trafod ond bydd y pleidleisiau ar wahân.