2. Pa asesiad y mae'r Gweinidog wedi'i wneud o effaith sancsiynau lles ar hawlwyr? OQ59363

Diolch, Luke Fletcher. Recent analysis shows a worrying trend in the increase in sanctions, which have almost doubled since pre-pandemic levels. The announcement made by the Chancellor in the budget statement on strengthening the sanctions regime is also a cause for concern. 

Diolch, Gweinidog. I think we should all be very concerned about the Department for Work and Pensions' latest pilots in England and Scotland, which mandate face-to-face attendance for up to 10 days every two weeks for claimants, with the threat of sanctions if this isn't adhered to. Areas within my region rank consistently high on the Welsh index of multiple deprivation, and if these proposals were to come to Wales—and there is every likelihood that this could happen—it would only serve to punish vulnerable claimants and risk plunging them deeper into poverty. These are people with caring responsibilities, people with disabilities, and those with limited public transport options. In response to my last question to you, Minister, you said that you wanted to revisit the idea of bringing together the UK-Welsh Government inter-ministerial advisory board on social security. Are you still looking to advance this work and, if so, what steps are being taken to do so?

Diolch yn fawr am eich cwestiwn.

It's very important that we recognise the evidence, and there's been a five-year study from the Economic and Social Research Council of welfare conditionality. It finds that sanctions generally deliver poor outcomes and don't incentivise people to get into work. I actually backed recommendations from the Institute for Public Policy Research to say that sanctions should be suspended, and particularly in these circumstances of the cost-of-living crisis. And I, actually, also recognise—and it became clear last week after the Chancellor's announcement—what the Child Poverty Action Group are saying, that the budget announcements are more stick than carrot, using punitive methods, such as sanctions, forcing parents into low-paid jobs, and also having an impact on disabled people. So, can I just say that I am continuing to press for that inter-governmental advisory committee to be set up, but also to see that that's in the context as well of the work that we're doing to explore the devolution of administration of benefits in line with our co-operation agreement?

The majority of sanctions, including universal credit, can be resolved quickly by claimants rebooking and attending their next appointment, and if information that amounts to a good reason comes to light, the sanction can be overturned and money repaid. I'm assured that there are hardship payments that are available as a safeguard via the DWP, if a claimant can demonstrate they can't meet their immediate needs because of a sanction. And it would be remiss of me not to point out that the most recent UK Government budget has made significant changes to help claimants, including parents, back to work, through, for example, paying universal credit childcare costs upfront, rather than in arrears, leaving people in debt. However, I'm disappointed that, while the UK Government has extended 30 hours of free childcare a week to all working parents of children aged nine months to four years, this won't be applied in Wales according to your First Minister. So, what efforts are you making to extend the free childcare offer so that Welsh parents can get off benefits and into a better future?

Well, I've already cited the evidence from the Economic and Social Research Council, and also the Institute for Public Policy Research, about how sanctions deliver poor outcomes and don't incentivise people to get into work. What we need is a social security system that actually focuses less on compliance and more on helping people—helping claimants into work. What we need is personalised job support, not sanctions. This is where we need to develop our approach, and I ask the Department for Work and Pensions to publish their research on benefit sanctions so that we can see how they can justify that.

But I have to say, in terms of the fact that we have a got a more generous childcare offer, and indeed, with Flying Start, a much more generous childcare offer for those who most need it as well, in terms of parents returning to work through education and training, that's not being offered in the UK Government childcare offer.

But let me just go back to the sanctions. The fact that primary carers of children as young as one or two will be required to search for work even when one parent is already working, and again the conditionality and the sanctions apply—. It's very hard for those who are most vulnerable, who are hardest hit by sanctions. Can I just give you the evidence from Wales? Across the UK and in Wales, there are a growing number of individuals seeking advice from Citizens Advice in relation to these inappropriate conditionality requirements and, in fact, recently, between 2021 and 2022, there was a 20 per cent increase in the number of people on universal credit asking for help with issues relating to conditionality, claimant commitments and sanctions. This is not a welfare state. I think also it's going to be really difficult in terms of the impact on disabled people trying to access employment and state benefits. 

I'm really disappointed to hear about sanctions, rather than compassion, because that's what we're talking about here. And I just hope that the individual who thinks it's okay never finds himself in need, because then he'll know how it feels. But the point I wanted to ask you, Minister, is what conversations you've had to try and educate the Tories in Westminster about providing proper free childcare for 48 weeks, for example. You've already mentioned it covers in Wales education and training opportunities to help those individuals educate themselves or find some training for the right type of employment for their area. And, whilst we hear them repeatedly trying to claim what they can't, that they're offer is better than ours, a little bit of compassion instead of another sanction that says, 'You can only have this if you work, but you can't have it to help you get into work'—. 

Thank you very much, Joyce Watson. It is important that we remind our colleagues in the Welsh Conservatives about what is happening in Wales as to childcare. We're already investing heavily to expand childcare and early years provision to all two-year-olds in Wales—a commitment in the co-operation agreement. We're investing more than £100 million in childcare in Wales a year already. Our childcare offer provides 30 hours of funded childcare a week for up to 48 weeks a year for three and four-year-olds. Parents in training and education get help with childcare costs, and we're already rolling out high-quality childcare to two-year-olds across Wales through our Flying Start programme. And funded childcare is supporting, as Joyce Watson said—it's supporting—more parents back to work, but not with the force of sanctions and conditionality that are forcing people, as the Child Poverty Action Group said, into lower paid jobs. We could spend too much time on this, but, at the moment, England is offering 30 hours of childcare for working parents for 38 weeks of the year, 15 hours funded childcare for some children aged two and three, and, of course, the planned changes in England will not take full effect for at least another two years.