Cwestiynau nawr gan lefarwyr y pleidiau. Llefarydd y Ceidwadwyr, Joel James. 

Thank you, Llywydd. Will the Minister make a statement on last week's announcement by the Ugandan Parliament that it is now illegal to identify as LGBTQ and a criminal matter for individuals or institutions to even support LGBTQ rights? Thank you. 

I thank the Member for this question. I am sure everybody in this Chamber will agree that it was horrifying to see not only the reports on the passing of the anti-homosexuality Bill in Uganda recently, but those scenes within the Ugandan Parliament. I have to say they genuinely made me feel physically sick to think of the position and what must be the absolute fear of the LGBTQ+ community in Uganda. And Wales very much stands in solidarity with LGBTQ+ communities everywhere, and we know that Uganda's LGBTQ+ people are suffering, and this new Bill will inflame the already discriminatory and marginalising narratives and abhorrent rhetoric against gay, lesbian and bisexual people that we find in too many communities and too many countries around the world.  

Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your strong condemnation, and I share wholeheartedly, and my group share wholeheartedly, the sentiments you have just expressed. However, given the very nature of this Bill and the consequences that it will now have, I think it's entirely pertinent for this Government to now clarify how it intends to keep safe those people who volunteer or participate in Welsh Government-funded projects in Uganda and who identify as LGBTQ, and I ask, Deputy Minister, whether you now think that Welsh organisations in receipt of Welsh Government money should still be sending volunteers and staff to Uganda.

The people and Government of Wales have a long-standing relationship with people and communities in eastern Uganda, as the Member is aware, and it's very important to make it clear that the Welsh Government does not have any formal relationship with the Government of Uganda. And our Wales and Africa programme, which I know the Member is familiar with, works in partnership with the people of Uganda and not the Ugandan Government.

But he does raise some very valid points in terms of the safety, not just of LGBTQ+ people within Uganda, but also people travelling to that country, and clearly there is advice that will come from the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, which we will be adhering to very closely. And this is something that myself and my good friend and colleague Jane Hutt have already arranged to look at to make sure that that support is in place, and we are taking these things very much into consideration.

Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your clarification on this matter and, as you've alluded to, I recently saw first-hand some of the projects in Uganda, particularly those projects looking to help communities by improving sustainable agroforestry. And I was pleased to see how they also help tackle gender inequality. But no matter how you look at this situation, the case is now clear that partner organisations that receive Welsh Government funding cannot publicly share our values. 

Last week, the First Minister released a written statement about ministerial overseas visits linked to St David's Day, where he re-emphasised the Welsh Government's commitment to making Wales the most LGBTQ+-friendly nation in Europe, and I'm left deeply troubled about how this makes Wales look hypocritical. This Government makes these statements about being LGBTQ-friendly, you condemn, rightly so, Uganda for their LGBTQ stance, but you're perfectly happy to accept hospitality from Qatar, a country that has the death penalty for homosexuality, and you're perfectly happy to spend money on products in Uganda, which imposes life imprisonment for homosexuality and has now made it illegal to even identify as LGBTQ. So, with this in mind, Deputy Minister, how can you morally justify Welsh taxpayers' money being spent, no matter how small, in a country that is in fundamental opposition to our values as a nation? Thank you.

Whilst I do welcome the Member's interest in this area, I'll not take lectures from the Conservative Party on support for the LGBTQ+ community. And clearly, it raises very valid concerns about the role that we play in terms of our diplomatic engagement and relationships and how we use our influence, where we do have it, in terms of support for the LGBTQ+ community globally. And you raise the issue of Qatar and it's very much part of our LGBTQ+ action plan to actually look at those relationships and have an ongoing review of them and make sure that we are analysing that and that we are working in a way that not only tries to advocate for those communities, but does so in a way that doesn't make the case worse for them. And I recognise, whilst these are questions for the Welsh Government, I hope that Joel James, whilst he was visiting Uganda, might have considered these issues, particularly when he met organisations and also the Anglican seminary there as well.

Llefarydd Plaid Cymru, Sioned Williams. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, yesterday—last evening—MPs debated the UK Tories' Illegal Migration Bill, and illegal it certainly is, because it's a Bill that has been deemed by dozens of human rights organisations and legal experts as incompatible with the international human rights treaties of which the UK is a signatory, including the European convention on human rights, the 1951 refugee convention and the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights. 

Minister, there can be no doubt that this deplorable Bill undermines Wales's aim to be a nation of sanctuary and our desire to expand the rights of refugees and asylum seekers to access services, not limit them. These are people, not a 'problem', as the leader of the Welsh Conservatives despicably stated on social media yesterday—not creating 'mayhem', in his shameful words, but our brothers and sisters, seeking our support. If we had the powers, we could ensure this inhumane, anti-refugee Bill would not apply in Wales. As that is unfortunately not the case, Plaid Cymru MPs yesterday laid an amendment to require the UK and Welsh Governments to jointly produce guidance, setting out how measures under this Act could be exercised in a way that is consistent with the Welsh Government's commitment of being a nation of sanctuary, and no guidance being allowed to be published unless it has been approved by this Senedd. It was disappointing that no Labour Welsh MPs were among those who signed the amendment. Minister, do you agree with Plaid Cymru that this Bill is an affront to the values of the people of Wales, at odds with international human rights treaties and counter to Wales's stated ambition of being a nation of sanctuary? And, if so, what action can the Welsh Government take to ensure that, contrary to the title of this Bill, nobody who seeks sanctuary in Wales is illegal?

Well, diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams, and can I really thank you for this question today? It is horrific what is happening in terms of this Bill making its way—forced through Parliament, forced, without proper scrutiny, through Parliament. And I did write to Robert Jenrick on 14 March—I shared my letter—and I said in that letter that we cannot support a Bill that the UN Refugee Agency has described as amounting to an asylum ban and which would breach the refugee convention and also, importantly—and I think this must be discussed when we look at this as a Senedd—the Home Secretary has herself stated that she cannot see that the Bill is compliant with the human rights convention. So, it is an illegal Bill in itself. 

As you say, we're striving to make Wales a true nation of sanctuary. I said this to Robert Jenrick, as I did in terms of the Nationality and Borders Act 2022 before it. It fundamentally undermines our ability to implement policies to achieve this, and particularly I would say, in terms of this Bill, in relation to children and young people. And just to say on that point, we have actually in our programme for government a commitment to uphold the rights of unaccompanied asylum-seeker children and young people. We're proud to take a child-first, migrant-second approach that upholds the best interests and rights of children. 

Diolch, Gweinidog. I would also like to talk about the events, the despicable events, in Uganda. Plaid Cymru, of course, has been proud to work with Welsh Government on the LGBTQ+ action plan to make Wales the most LGBTQ+-friendly nation in Europe, but the plan also commits, of course, to demonstrate Wales's international duty to show leadership on equality. People who identify in Uganda, as we've heard now, risk life in prison and could be given the death penalty in some cases, after the Parliament passed that new Bill last week. The Bill is being described as one of the toughest pieces of anti-gay legislation in Africa. As well as making identifying as gay illegal for the first time, friends, families and members of the community would have a duty to report individuals in same-sex relationships to the authorities. Amnesty has said:

'This deeply repressive legislation will institutionalise discrimination, hatred, and prejudice against LGBTI people...and block the legitimate work of civil society, public health professionals, and community leaders.'

We know, of course, and have just discussed the many links with Uganda through the Wales and Africa programme that the Welsh Government has, working in partnership on various projects and programmes. So, Minister, how is the Welsh Government going to make sure that those engaged in those projects, who may be at serious risk from this hideous legislation, are protected? How are we going to make them safe and how are you going to ensure that the Wales and Africa programme more generally is aligned with the international commitments in the action plan?

Well, I thank you also, Sioned, for raising that question, and obviously thank the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership for responding so fully and clearly to the question from Joel James earlier on. I think it is really important that we make our statement here today, and it's a statement that's coming from across the whole of the Senedd. And recognising, again, as the Deputy Minister has said, that the Wales and Africa programme works in partnership with the people of Uganda and not the Government. And just to say that we have been encouraging people who have gone to Uganda to discuss these issues, to discuss issues relating to LGBTQ+ rights, with the hosts. And in fact, I can say that I have also discussed them with visitors who come from Uganda. It is a key opportunity and responsibility to discuss these issues. This is obviously to attempt to promote better understanding and tolerance and to reach out to people who want to hear from us, including LGBTQ+ people in Uganda. Now, obviously, we await to see this Bill. It's been passed back to President Museveni. He's got 30 days to provide assent or send back to Parliament with changes. I think it is important that it's addressed today and, as the Deputy Minister said, that we look at this in terms of not just our working relationship with those NGOs in Uganda, but also acknowledge that, actually, we have to ensure travel advice as well, to warn anyone who is visiting, in terms of their needs and rights, that we take this into account as well with the FCDO.